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SAJID HUDLI
Jan 22, 2000 - 11:00   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Re: Flywheel technology for cars

FLYWHEEL MANUFACTURING

Sage
May 03, 2001 - 15:16   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Does anyone know how much these flywheels weigh. It seems to me they have to have substantial mass to store significant energy (even accounting for this somewhat being covered by their high rpm's). I think this is why they are so useful in space, and such stationary exercises. In a car it would sem to add a lot of weight which would need to be moved around. I don't have any facts but am just thinking it might take something over 100lbs spinning to realy get a car moving which is like haveing an extra person in the car all the time. Does anyone have numbers? Is this more than accounted for by the energy saved by storing the braking power otherwise lost. Anygood sites to go to would also be appreciated. I love this kinda of research but get frustrated it stays research so long.

Sage

Paul Sedun
Jul 20, 2001 - 18:14   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
If you haven't already, check out the excellent WIRED MAGAZINE article (May 2000) on Jack Bitterly and US Flywheel Systems. I can email it to you if you can't get it.

Alex
Dec 04, 2001 - 20:44   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Sage - Actually engineers are looking for the LIGHTEST material to build flywheels from. Lightest and strongest, of course. You see, heavier material means bigger centrifugal forces, which tear the flywheel apart much more easily. So don't worry about the flywheel weighing too heavily. The motor/generator, enclosure and power electronics would weigh several times as much. No actual figures, unfortunately. Do a search on "Bitterly, flywheel".

Larry
Aug 31, 2002 - 04:59   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Sage - The flywheels are replacing several hundred pounds of engine, transmission and exhaust system, probably closer to or even more than 1000 pounds in some cases. One article says that 16 flywheels (around 100 lbs each) could give a maximum of 800 hp when flooring the pedal. Who needs that? Most cars would need only 3 to 6 flywheels, an excellent trade for weight to power ratio. Besides that, you aren't trading mass for mass. The spinning of the flywheel acts as a generator and only transfers power to electric motors to propel the car. Also, braking would be used to add power back to the flywheels to extend their use. I've read 300 to 400 miles per spin up would be average milage per spin up. That's equivalent to a tank of gas, and 15 minutes to re-spin the wheels to maximum makes for a perfect break time on long trips. It's so unbelieveable that the auto manufacturers gave this technology the cold shoulder.

Michael
Dec 02, 2002 - 22:41   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
That is because the big three (Ford, Chrysler and GM) are in bed with the big oil companies. Get a car running on next to nothing as far as expendable fuels go means less profit for the oil companies. That is why you'll never see a car running on just electricity, not in our life time anyway.

simon hudson
Oct 01, 2003 - 17:33   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
I'd just like to say, Flywheel technology is fantastic, and I have no doubt at all that it is a significant advance from chemical energy storage systems like batteries, and as such will allow further electric car development.

However, electiric cars are not the future. I find it amazing that everybody harps on about them so much when they have such a fundamental flaw.

Energy is always lost during any process of energy conversion. So using electricity to power a motor is one opperation, generating that electricity is another.

and to date every method of generating electricity, if it isnt through burning stuff, costs vast ammounts of energy in the manufacture of the solar pannel or the wind turbine. It's all a stop gap sollution. We need a renewable, green source of energy right there, in the vehicle, preferably that extracts it's energy from the atmosphere.

Electric cars?.........white elephant?, perhaps a smoke screen if you are a big brother sceptic!? But deffinately not the right future!

Simon
Wirral, England

Todd Brown
Oct 10, 2003 - 23:26   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Actually Simon, and others.

Current engine technologies can decrease engine weight by up to 2/3rds increasing horsepower by 100%. Also, deisel fuel turbo, and water injection could make for higher output gains. These engines are relatively cheap to build. With this type of motor spinnging (as power maintenance)the flywheel which has generating capacities, or PTO otuput, or whatever, and regenerative braking systems, potential mileage for the average SUV would be 70 or hundred miles to the gallon with conventional fuels. Smaller cars might get 120 or more to the gallon. The power savings of the engine not running under most normal driving conditions, lack of physical power train and it's resistance, and regenerative braking would make for a very friendly machine. Tube frame construction and composite body panels would further enhance the design. Mass production of such a vehicle is probably the single event that will give the human race enough time to develop alternative resources. Imagine,
In five years, 40% of car emissions would be eliminated.
Because of savings in fossil fuel purchases, any older car would become a museum peice, or junk. After 10 years, even with growing populations, 50% or 60% percent of car emissions could be eliminated. That's the kind of stop gap that makes sense for everyone. And yes, the oil companies
ARE in the business of making sure you don't get a car like this. For example, the longer we are in IRAQ, the higher the prices stay for American Oil companies. Pretty simple when you think about it.
If anyone would like to invest in the project, I will build,
or help build the car. I would need money for materials,
a small stipend to make sure my bills can be paid, and
access to a mechanical engineer and tooling costs paid for.
I would be happy to provide references to research or persons who could prove this technology and idea sound.
So, if you have the money and the balls. I'm just your average guy who knows that what's on the T.v. is a bunch of crap. Otherwise, your just another talker.
Oh. Simon. Challenge the Paradigm. Even your own. It's not all black and white.

Gennaman
Oct 19, 2003 - 17:05   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
This flywheel power vehicles facinates me, I too have just discovered that old August 1996 Discover magazine article.
In this article the interveiwer mentions that the inventer Jack Bitterly was quite cautious about giving too much of his idea out,because of someone stealing it.

Now, I need some feedback from the people on here,about ideas such as Jack Bitterly's being bought up,and stored away by huge corporations over the years,because they would either cost them too much money to compete,or just because they wanted to milk the current technology for all it's worth.

Yes ,I'd call this a conspiracy,might even go past that and call it criminal.How many of these ideas are locked away,while this planet dies from yesterday's technologies.

Can anyone here give me authors and book titles that are along these lines .If you happen to be my age and remember from school the predictions for the turn of the century,you understand the reason why I'm so curious

Pennella
Oct 29, 2003 - 04:10   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Wow! how expensive is h2O to run in your tank or how realistice id the Mr. Fussion device from Back to the Future II?
Just your average teacher.

Christopher
Visitor
Feb 23, 2005 - 19:35   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
It's not just the oil companies that would lose, it's every county in every state that places a tax on every gallon sold. I'm sure once you think about it, the ripple effect of jobs lost would almost force our "Big Brother" to step in to protect the National economy. I see how this planet needs this technology, but maybe not for cars. It would need to be introduced in a more subtle way. Perhaps as a way of providing power to remote areas where service isn't so frequent. I see extreme potential for this and I hope I am alive to see it become more than the idea it is.

Christopher
Visitor
Feb 23, 2005 - 19:44   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
The oil companies aren't the only ones who stand to lose. This has potential of going much higher. Think of all the counties in all the states who will lose valuable tax money should this technology start to gain momentun.(sorry about the pun) I firmly believe that this planet of ours needs this new source of energy, unfortunatly we don't have the luxery of knowing just how much oil is still buried. I remember gas lines in the early 70's and a panic over running out of oil by the turn of the millinium. Lucky for us that somehow more was found. I've dreamed of being a part of exploring this new (old?) path. At present I am in college learning about microprocessors and PLCs so that I can add new technology to an old problem - how to power the Bitterly flywheel whithout being on the power grid. I have an idea. Sometimes that's all it takes. My next problem is getting one of his flywheels for experimentation. I fear he may die before I can contact him. Can you imagine picking his brain for inspiration? I too have marveled at his concept since I first read the article in 96. I still have hope that there are enough people interested in this to keep it alive. One day someone will succeed at the right time and the community will not be able to turn thier head away.

Mæstro John
Visitor
Feb 26, 2005 - 07:33   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
To all who care to listen...

...I (a cynical optimist) believe that yes, flywheel technology will NOT mature in my or even my 7 year old daughter's lifetime! This, of course, is the fault of the greedy oil mongers of this disturbed world! It is the 3% of the population (like G. Bush) that have total dominion over the rest of us. These sick individuals consider themselves omnipotents! Such a shame, to continue this way, completely and irresponsibly destroying this beautiful planet we all must share, by the continued and unnecessary reliance on petrol guzzling wheeled coffins we drive around in daily. Enough said.
And may God help us all!!!

PS: I am available for any strategic implementation of flywheel technology, please feel free to use me as-you-see-fit for such global-reaching R&D work. I do have a brain; please pick at it freely, before the life-threatening disease I'm afflicted with, takes me away a-ha!
And yes, The Mæstro(moi or me) is a techno-guru.
Si seulement Je pourrait parler avec Monsieur Bitterly, pour une petite demie-heure.
Bonne chance à vous tous!

Christopher Ryan
New Collaborator

Registered: Feb 2005
Post Number: 1
Mar 17, 2005 - 19:43   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Maestro, you've piqued my curiousity. Did you actually meet the man?

Mæstro John
Visitor
Apr 19, 2005 - 04:04   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
A note to christopher,

No, nada, nyet, non, I have never met the man, that said, I'd reaaallly[sic] like to. Just a out-of-the-blue guess that the man (Jack B.) may no longer be with us. After all, he is an older fellow. May have passed on. I do however wonder if the murder of his beloved wife was ever solved?

The Mæstro.

Sione
Visitor
Aug 24, 2005 - 00:17   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Flywheels. That's a very elegant idea. I like it. Could be a contender one day. Might even make a useful product. I hope so.

There are several points you guys need to consider. First up, there is no big oil conspiracy to prevent the technology getting to market. It's a matter of practicality. Oil is the cheapest energy source there is bar none. Oh sure you can quote wind and solar and all that nonsense but the fact is that none of that stuff is cheap (capex and opex costs per kW/hr for such systems are ridiculously high) and none of it is reliable. Oil is a good as it gets. It has high energy density and there are endless amounts of the stuff (like we've been seeing 30 years quoted as the known supply since the 1870s; shouda run out by now...). Oil, even today, is cheap. Government on the other hand is very expensive.

The taxes and regulations placed on oil by governments in their short sighted, self-serving greed is what drives the prices up. The industry tries to drive the price down (Rockefeller was a good example of this). Take a look at the tight margins the oil business and compare those with the massive takes of governments (especially your one). This is well worth researching properly. Go do it.

As for the car industry. You can call it unimaginitive (and to some extent it is). It's also an industry of tight margins. The car industry executive faces massive risks. Making the wrong decision to tool up for a car that subsequently bombs in the market is likely to cost hundreds of millions of dollars. One or two like that and even a company the size of GM ceases to exist. There are plenty of examples. Check it out. Do the research and you'll soon see what a hideously risky business the car industry is. And the government is in there raising the costs, getting a free cut from every car built. Of course you all get to pay for that.

R&D is expensive. We all seem to accept that. But getting from the laboratory bench top to a marketable product is far more risky and vastly more expensive yet. The investment required is hundreds of millions of dollars. Perhaps even billions. Have any of you ever been in the position of having responsibility to deploy that sort of money? Do you have any idea of the magnitude of the task? Clearly not or some of the more ignorant posts on this thread would never have been written.

They way they talk some idiots seem to think this sort of money grows on trees. Perhaps they are all infected with a government hand-out mentality. For govt. money is free. They print it (with no backing; BTW this is a fraud), they tax it out of any productive person or enterprise (this is theft) and they impose regulations and rules that add costs and limit valid business choices (this is force and violence). Consider this, for a simple drug that costs a few dollars to make the process of getting certification from the FDA in the United States alone costs over US$800,000,000.00. That's not to do research or tool up, just to get permission from the govt to sell the drug. The results of these activities is paid for by every citizen in one way or another. It impoverishes all of us.

Sione
Visitor
Aug 24, 2005 - 00:21   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Returning to the flywheels. What appears to work in the lab may not work outside the lab. To get to a marketable product you need to build prototypes and test them in all sorts of environments. You need expensive tooling to do that. You need to deploy hundreds of staff for years. Then you need to work out how you'll produce in quantity (tens of millions of units per year). So that needs yet more people (engineers, tool makers, administrators, failure analysts, economists, accountants, insurance actuaries, technicians, software experst, materials experts, logistics managers and on and on and on) and all the infrastructure (don't forget the payroll taxes and other govt impositions) such as workstations, computers, tools, desks, building and offices, workshops etc, etc, etc. In the end, all going well, you (hopefully) have worked out how to make the damn things and make them economically enough so that people can afford to buy them.

Let's assume that you've also investigated whether the suppliers of the carbon fibres or graphite or nanotubes can ramp up their production to meet your projected orders (which you will be expected to guarantee so that they can cash raise to purchase the extra production capacity to meet your PROJECTED demand). This will have cost you the time of some mighty fine business analysts for a year or so at say $600.00 per hour. And we are not through yet. Not by far.

Now you (or rather, your top line team of A-list design engineers) have to design a car to integrate the flywheels properly into the overall design. You need to deal with safety, crash and failure issues. You also need to design balance-of-plant. You know, things like the control system the electric motor/generators to drive the wheels, the steering system (electro-hydraulic or electric or what?), brakes and so on. Any one of these details could doom your entre project and kill the company dead. There are many other things to deal with such as vehicle dynamics, suspension and handling and ride, NVH and even HVAC. And NO, we have not finished yet.

Once all this is accomplished (years and years of work for thousands of people) you have to actually buy and install the tooling in a factory, train the production staff and build some pre-production prototypes. These need to be tested and any alterations necessary must be incorporated in the production process so that the final vehicle is ready for market. Of course these late changes are really eye-wateringly expensive (and not a rare occurance, even for a completely conventional vehicle about to enter mass production- look up the literature for plenty examples). And still we need to invest yet more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

There's marketing, sales, logistics, training of technicians, training of customers, warranties and on it goes. It is likley there will be some recalls and what with Americans being so odd no doubt some of them will sue you, the manufacturer, for something or other (like they can't hear the engine or something dumb lke that).

And we, as yet, have no idea what costs the govt regulators will impose. All you can be guaranteed is that they will be irrational and EXPENSIVE. So you'd better hire a really good Washington lobby group and get ready to make plenty of campaign contributions to senators, congressmen and sundry others.

Surely you can see why the car-makers have yet to suddenly acceed to the childish wishings of those who want their unproved dream realised right now? Lovely yearings and musings coupled to towering demands placed on a chat group are no substitute for billions of dollars and the intelligence and experience to manage it.

Or if you can't understand that I'll put it this way. Why don't you guys spend your own time and money to build a prototype car? Just one. One that really works. No bull, no promisies, no talking; let's see a practicle working prortype. That's not too difficult, surely?

Victor Mendoza
Visitor
Feb 19, 2006 - 04:39   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Almost a decade has passed since the article on flywheel powered cars was published in Discover magazine, and as promising as that teechnology seemed, nothing has come of it. In fact search the internet and there is almost NO information on it! You can probably find a million recipies for apple pie but not even a dozen mentions of a potentially revolutionary technology like this?!?! I am no conspiracy theorist, but something does seem out of sorts. I wrote a post here 7 years ago; it is disheartening that after all this time neither this, nor any other real challenge to oil dependant transportation looks to be gaining any momentum. No mass movement to demand R&D on technology that would cut our dependance on oil is evident... are we all blind, propaganda-fed zombies? Are oil companies so powerful that we all sit quietly watching war, death and environmental degradation destroy our planet in front of our eyes and do nothing!! If that's the nature of man, shame on us all.

Steven Willis
Visitor
Aug 09, 2006 - 15:12   Edit Post Delete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
Almost a decade has passed since the article on flywheel powered cars was published in Discover magazine, and as promising as that teechnology seemed, nothing has come of it.

I can still remember reading that article in Discover magazine with great hope when I was just 14 years old. Of all the articles I read over the years from Discover, this was one of the maybe three articles that really stuck with me. I remember having so much hope for this technology. Nothing has happened, I re-read the article today and tried finding as much information about Jack Bitterly, US Flywheels, and flywheels in general as I could. The only information out there seems to be the articles by Discover and Wired promising the exact same thing.

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